Representing everything that's wrong with the world

[TokenLiberal]

I'm not breaking this into individual quotes as I expect you can follow a narrative.

Sure that's fine. It's helpful for readers to use quotes if you're responding to a point of mine, though.

I didn't say corruption and corporate profiteering are the same. Corporate profiteering is a problem because our regulatory agencies are corrupt and have revolving doors with the biggest players in industry. It's not really up for debate as I have observed this with my own eyes in real time and have been party to litigation over it.

Corruption in your government is certainly a problem, but corporate profiteering would (and does, in countries where corruption is not a problem) exist regardless. The profit incentive is inherent in capitalism, it's not a consequence of corruption. If you mean that the state has a critical role in keeping it under control, and that corruption is one reason the state is ineffective in that role, I agree, but it's just one reason. I think the main reason is the trend of deregulation started by Reagan. If that's not up for debate to you, I suppose that's the end of the road for that subject.

Do not confuse stupid and ignorant. Stupid is a lack of intellect and ignorant is a lack of information. I am not basing my conclusion on a difference of opinion. I am basing it on you making factually inaccurate statements about the politics in the country I have lived in my entire life. The country has moved increasingly toward alt-left radicalism since Obama took office. It is irrelevant to me that the press went with it or that Europeans are already further left. Europe is not the US. We had over a billion dollars in damage from alt-left riots during Trump's term that left many people dead, government buildings burned down, and retail areas abandoned. There were dozens of Democrat politicians that supported this, contributed to efforts to bail violent rioters out to continue rioting, and there were prosecuting attorney activists that declined to charge this roving band of violent terrorists. This is not a disputable fact as I have lived through it.

My degree is in environmental science and my career was in public health. These are both fields that are now infested with activists rather than scientists. I am acutely aware of the political ebb and flow that has gone on here. You are presenting a story that flies in the face of what has actually happened in my country.

This goes back to my point earlier ITT: "A consequence of the algorithms that supply us with our warm bath of emotional validation is that we end up living in different realities. You will think a lot of things that I believe are simply not true, and the other way around. My hope is that we can bring our lived realities together a little. Ultimately, the facts are the facts, and if we can all rationally and critically review the evidence, we should be able to agree there at least."

Already, you are saying I'm getting things factually wrong. It's clear that we are indeed living in different realities. Can you specify which parts of my post you think are factually wrong?

I don't have any need to impose my beliefs on you. You've made a bunch of specious arguments without any evidence, but want me to provide evidence of things I consumed in first person a decade or more ago. It ain't happening because it's not important to me and you probably aren't going to alter your opinion based on new evidence. You think you will, you want to think you will, but nothing will actually do it. I can show you documents, but you'll find them inconclusive. You will have no problem with 2nd order thinking while attributing every crime imaginable to Trump, but will suddenly require notarized confessions when it relates to Obama or Biden.

What are you hoping to get out of discussions with me?

I get testy when I think I'm being engaged dishonestly,

Do you think I am engaging dishonestly? If so, how so?

Basically, shit or get off the pot. I have plenty of posts here that give an idea of my views. Feel free to read them and tell me I'm wrong. If you're clever and interesting, I'll respond. You can also post a full thread (rather than the survey you posted) and I'll engage there. I'm not in any rush and I don't mind reading long posts. The irrational Trump as a Bond movie villain thing doesn't interest me and the rhetoric about how everything he does is so unprecedented just isn't true. I live here, I have lived here, I worked in several government positions, and I am very informed on what's gone on here.

You keep saying how informed you are and how you have troves of anecdotal evidence, but that's not meaningful to me. Anyone could say these things. It boils down to "trust me bro". If you want to be convincing, you'll have to justify your positions with evidence that I have access to as well.

I've been far more thorough and engaging than you'll get most other places. You can earn more engagement by not boring me. I will do my best not to bore you in return. If nothing else, you have my respect for being willing to participate on what you assumed was a hostile forum. I'm not hostile, but I also don't play grab-ass if somebody is pissing on my head and telling me it's raining.

Yet you have not been treating me with respect. You have been dismissing my positions as ignorant and suggesting that they are the result of political bias and a lack of critical thinking. And yes, you've been thorough, needlessly so. If we want to have a real discussion, it would be helpful to keep it more focused. I asked you to specify which parts of my post you think are factually wrong. Let's start there. If you want, you can even pick just one.

[MykeNukem]

Awesome intro thread .. what a ride .. 

[ChiefD]

Hi, I'm a "liberal" by most definitions, not from the states but certainly would vote democrat if I could. 

I joined ATS recently because I believe that, in this era of echo chambers, it's important for us to seek out opinions that challenge our own, and ATS seems conservative-dominated. After I inserted myself unceremoniously into some divisive threads, someone by the name of ksihkahe called me out for being *checks notes* pedantic, disingenuous, a pearl clutcher, and worst of all: A defender of democrats. Intrigued, I decided to check out the link in their signature and it brought me here. In the spirit of this thread, and since work is very slow right now, I thought: The place could use some dissenters. Fuck it, why not join?

A bit about my relevant interests: I like forums, debates, people that don't shy away from getting to the bottom of a disagreement, capitalism, democracy, freedom, Pete Buttigieg, reading entire SCOTUS rulings for some reason, and Barack Obama.

If I'm not welcome here, please let me know, I'll be out of your hair.

Hello TokenLiberal, and welcome! Greetings from a fellow liberal, albeit from the U.S. Yes, it’s always good to have some dissent on any site. It’s an uphill battle, but hey, why not? 

[TokenLiberal]

Turns out it's not really a battle at all. Nobody wants to have a real discussion, not about politics anyway. Dissenters are "welcome", but not welcome. The rebranding makes sense then (in case you didn't know, this forum used to be called Mud Pit Politics), and confirms that this is a waste of time for me. I'll keep checking, occasionally, if by some miracle people have changed their minds and started answering some of my many open questions (one example is my last post in this very thread, where I ask what's his name to specify which parts of my post are factually wrong and get no response), but you won't see me putting any more time into this unprompted. Someone will have to show me they're actually interested.

So if you're here for the same reason I joined, I wish you the best of luck but you probably won't find what you're looking for.

[MykeNukem]

Turns out it's not really a battle at all. Nobody wants to have a real discussion, not about politics anyway. Dissenters are "welcome", but not welcome. The rebranding makes sense then (in case you didn't know, this forum used to be called Mud Pit Politics), and confirms that this is a waste of time for me. I'll keep checking, occasionally, if by some miracle people have changed their minds and started answering some of my many open questions (one example is my last post in this very thread, where I ask what's his name to specify which parts of my post are factually wrong and get no response), but you won't see me putting any more time into this unprompted. Someone will have to show me they're actually interested.

So if you're here for the same reason I joined, I wish you the best of luck but you probably won't find what you're looking for.

Unfortunately, you can't force people to argue with you, ask my wife.   That was a joke (she's behind me, isn't she? .. )

[TokenLiberal]

Unfortunately, you can't force people to argue with you, ask my wife.   That was a joke (she's behind me, isn't she? .. )

When you brand your forum "mud pit politics" and there is a clear focus on politics in your forum structure, new users will expect to find political discourse and expect to find other users who don't shy away from debate. You seem to have realized the branding mistake and have since rebranded, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Had this been the brand from the beginning, I probably wouldn't have wasted my time.

[NobodySpecial268]

When you brand your forum "mud pit politics" and there is a clear focus on politics in your forum structure, new users will expect to find political discourse and expect to find other users who don't shy away from debate. You seem to have realized the branding mistake and have since rebranded, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Had this been the brand from the beginning, I probably wouldn't have wasted my time.

Oh lighten up. You asked me a question one time, and I gave you an honest answer that was admittedly thinking outside the box on my part. It just wasn't what you were expecting. - I have promised not to use the R-word by the way.

[MykeNukem]

When you brand your forum "mud pit politics" and there is a clear focus on politics in your forum structure, new users will expect to find political discourse and expect to find other users who don't shy away from debate. You seem to have realized the branding mistake and have since rebranded, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Had this been the brand from the beginning, I probably wouldn't have wasted my time.

There was no mistake, it was filling a niche that ATS didn't provide at the time, 'The Mud Pit'.

This site was never advertised or indexed by search engines until our recent domain change and expansion, so it was basically an echo chamber politically with a few core members and friends from ATS that came over, agreed, we mostly leaned the same way politically, so, not much debate.

Since ATS is now down, we decided to refocus and expand.

I always welcomed you here, as I do everyone.

The political forums will remain too.

[TokenLiberal]

Oh lighten up. You asked me a question one time, and I gave you an honest answer that was admittedly thinking outside the box on my part.  It just wasn't what you were expecting. - I have promised not to use the R-word by the way.

I wasn't really talking about you. You did indeed answer my questions, although you only responded to one of my threads iirc.

What's the R-word?

[NobodySpecial268]

I wasn't really talking about you. You did indeed answer my questions, although you only responded to one of my threads iirc.

What's the R-word?

Yeah, I know you weren't referring to me, that was elsewhere.

R-word?

Why that would be Ru**ia : )